Re: Countdown to the change of beliefs (12padams and Summerlander)

Post by **Summerlander** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:55 am

i assure you that we do have a non-physical body made out of a subter energy that can be projected possessing a set of senses of perception similar and serving for the same purposes as those from the physical body-we have para-eyes, para-ears and para-everything,ett.

But how can you assure me of that? Where is your proof? Show me what convinced you of that. How comes the existence of ghosts has not been officially established? Where is this energy you speak of? What do you mean by non-physical? If we have a subtler body made of some sort of energy then surely it must be physical also? Why do people insist on using oxymoronic terms?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not here to dictate to people what they should or should not believe, but I will highlight logic to them. If you think an ethereal body is responsible for "I", then this ethereal body must be physically real and there has to be some sort of mechanism that makes this work. So far, scientists have more chances of finding the Higgs' boson!

When a creation is shared by many minds it tends to seem more solid and stable less fluidic and changeable.

This is simply how you interpreted your experiences. Give SOBT another revision and test it. You will see that this can be explained away by expectation, belief and a deep phase. Are you familiar with "deepening" and the fact that it can be bypassed on certain occasions?

On ego... remember that your ego was developed. This happens the more living organisms experience and interact with their environment. It is essential for survival. It is the way of things. Have you ever considered the possibility that awareness is the result of certain interactions in the matter that pervades the universe (besides your dualist theory)?

You may believe in ghosts and an afterlife - it is your prerogative - but, scientifically, it is only hypothetical. We cannot yet rule out the evident scenario that consciousness arises from matter when we don't yet fully understand how the brain works and why certain forces in nature behave the way they do. Our great minds are working on it, and, so far, their observations of reality have majorly contributed in our development.

12padams · Post by **12padams** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:17 am

But how can you assure me of that? Where is your proof? Show me what convinced you of that

That's what I am going to become if Tony (other tony known as Phanes on these forums) is unable to prove what he's been telling me about over the last 3 years. I will become exactly like summerlander and ask questions like that. But if this thing gets proved there won't be any summerlanders on these forums.

But I do ask you tony (yes now I'm taking about you) could you do any of the following:

1. Read my mind.
2. Read a note I write in the phase.
3. recall my life experiences that I have not written about.
4. pull me out of my body and meet me in the phase on an arranged night.
5. Enter the phase at will (won't prove what your saying is true but will make proof much easier to give)

Those are just a few tests which may be able to prove what your saying is true. Yikes... What am I doing? Already I am feeling doubtful about this whole thing and the date haven't even come yet...

Well put it this way, you won't have to prove anything if I get my proof from the other tony... I won't be here to tell you all about it though so summerlander will do that for me

Get ready! In 4 days your either gunna have a doubtful Philip or no Philip at all. In other words enjoy the current intermediate state of beliefs I am currently displaying because it will never be seen again.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:06 pm

...from a simulated dreamscape? Many can offer theoretical explanations, but not one that can be applied or proven in practice.-

yes, i understood perfectly well what you mean. i have been thinking some about it lately on the importance of the shooting phase. Yet i insist on the important role 'the ego' play in all these experiences. i mean, it has to do to desires. So much so if you don't have a definite purpose finding yoursef out of the body itself would be something of little meaning. Desire does play an important role as long as the phase is concerned. Human beings are driven by need. For example, if a man goes to sleep to do an obe sexual desire can help him eject his non-physical body to quench the sexual desire thirst. we sometimes tend to underestimate the importance of desire as having capital importance in this subject. Not only sex appeal, but also any other urging need experienced by the practitioner during sleep. The simplest in all methods is drinking a lot of water before going to sleep and the purpose for doing so is obviously implied. The longing to meet a deceased relative, for instance, is also a compulsive force outwards. Anything at all which demands taking to the highway in an aggressive way any impelling force outwards to fulfill that specific desire.

Post by **Summerlander** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:05 pm

The simplest in all methods is drinking a lot of water before going to sleep and the purpose for doing so is obviously implied.

This is a good way to get people to wake up in the night in order to perform the indirect method. In fact, the need to use the toilet can be felt in dreams and can be used as a trigger for lucidity. It's worked for me before. Desire is certainly a part of the equation. Nonetheless, it is all in SOBT.

Chris_ld · Post by **Chris_ld** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:22 pm

Tick-Tock.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:03 pm

i have to do it my own time. i work full time in two high schools between my work i take part. i cannot say i do obes on a daily basis. Most time i go to sleep extremely exhausted. At least i never do obes quite as oftens i would like to-experiencing the shooting phase into locale 1-the counterpart of our ordinary world. So, it explains how i got so enthusiastic about the palpation and peering technique that i applied for the first time with success. Of course in the past while practising lucid dreaming trying on various methods from Robert Monroe, Stephen LaBerge. Yram, Sylvan Mooldon, ett. i had long accomplished doing obe remaining lucid from the starting point of the shooting phase, shooting is most incorrect verb cause invariably i just rolled over onto the floor, stood up and started to walk about my house. The first time i felt a gnawing feeling to have to pass through the wooden front door of my house to end up into the DJ house- a neighbour who worked as a DJ and also worked as a host in radio programs in my town. Dj. told me about some secrets of his life, rather it was not a secret, it was about some plans he had been carrying on, that later on i could confirm with him and he got surprised on how could i have been correct, wondering who could have told me about those plans or activities.. not Alternatively, the complete exhaustion of the physical body has given me freedom 'in the phase' enough to perceive other 'matrixes' as valid as this one-our 3dimensional world including the matrix of the shaman center, commonalities perceived by 'our mother, our father of saints and me', minute details from the craft in that dimension, i mean the craft matrix. The referred matrixes are created through time and repetitive patterns of thought and creeds shared by people belonging to same religious groups. 'Realities' can be created and experienced by a certain group. That's the purpose of rituals in a certain society. That's the mystery behind entronizing statues of saints i want to make it clear that i often keep a scientific approach into these phenomena and if i sounded categorical putting on airs of knowing all the things perhaps it can be explained by language barriers.
---but not one that can be applied or proven in practice.-
yes, i agree. that's why i don't like to discuss about 'intellectual probable phenomena'-still i can not deny the validity of the info triggered by other senses of perception-as i am not a politician i will need no one's vote.

Post by **Summerlander** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:55 pm

Tony, you mentioned Sylvan Muldoon. I'm about to read one of his books that was lent to me by a friend of mine. I know that he leans more on the mystical side of things but rep has it that he is accurate about some stuff. How did you find his stuff? Is it compatible with your OOBEs?

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:12 pm

@bluremi-'Summerlander is correct when he says that we cannot deduce the reality of a phase experience because it is completely subjective. We have to rely on self-reporting, which, as any prison psychiatrist will tell you when an inmate is up for parole evaluation, is not a very reliable method.'
it is not a matter of taking sides, bluremi. This is too petty. All we want is to inquire, to investigate on the subjective nature of a phase experience. It is the relative truth, all truths are half truths and there always the other side of the coin. it is a paradoxical issue whose right questions are those which do not expect a definite answer. Answers are gratuitously given by the religionists and the sect creators. As long as the psi-gamma phenomena produced by me you will sure have to depend on my self-reporting. That's the reason why i dislike so much reporting on my telepathic, clairvoyant phenomena. The reason is simple-most times i have no means to prove them. Though exceptions fortunately occur. As when i had a vision relating to an internet japanese woman. The whole thing was not pre-arranged, it just happened involuntarily. It occured to me to view that japanese woman 'in the astral', she was staring at a picture on the wall. It was a portrait of her father 'wearing' severe looks. i knew that lady bore some traumas relating to her father, then, further on, the following day i referred to that letting a counsellor friend of hers know about my vision asking his advice on how i should approach that issue. He confirmed i was correct, she had already let him know, it was true the episode with her father, the traumas, strrugles and difficulities into a positive outcome they could get along well some day-very doubtful the possibility. How can i deny,bluremi, something so crystal clear. How?

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:26 pm

Well, Muldoon, Yram, Robert Monroe, these snakes, in a word, they were sort of pioneers on the subject -obes. i came across Muldoon's book among so many other on a pile after a Seminar by Silva Mind Control course in my town at about 35years ago. I am 53 by now. The best technique i have ever experienced on obes belong to R+C- AMORC from Harvey Spencer Lewis, man. About such technique i cannot reveal the Order's secret although i am inactive nowadays. Compatible?-No i make use of AMORC technique.

12padams · Post by **12padams** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:38 am

Hey what's up, meet 12padams - The new skeptic

Btw the old Philip with intermediate beliefs is now gone. Did nobody notice his goodbye YouTube video hidden in the countdown numbers?

Anyway this is an important point because now I will write my books with the belief that it's all in my head. There will be no more telepathic experiments. When writting my "phase acquaintances" book (starts when I turn 18 ) I will meet phase people with the belief that they are just an amazing creation of the mind... If phase people I meet in my second book can change my beliefs then I will no longer be a skeptic... I am however going to remain very hard to crack from now on though.

Th3TruthizInThere · Post by **Th3TruthizInThere** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:58 am

What happened to sway you to be a skeptic Phillip?

12padams · Post by **12padams** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:11 am

Th3TruthizInThere wrote: What happened to sway you to be a skeptic Phillip?

The date I was using the timers in the post to count down to was supposed to occur today (I actually had the timers a day off). Nothing happened and tony told me that the date was wrong and it will occur in September. His friend Chris had told me it was going to occur in september before I even made this post but I trusted tony when he said April 14th. He was wrong and even though he's saying September I am going to remain a skeptic until I receive undeniable proof in semptember or another future point.

Post by **Summerlander** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:36 pm

You have the right to be sceptical about what is being fed to you, 12padams. Trust your experiences. On telepathy... don't write it off as non-existent so soon. I'm on the fence when it comes to it. Some of my experiences have suggested that the phase may provide telepathic links.

Persinger has suggested that the geomagnetic field activity plays a role in its effectiveness. Nothing has been concretely proven, though.

Here's an array of questions to consider for when we say that it is all in our heads. What if we are all the same mind? What if individual minds are quantum entangled? What if we can access a cosmic mind that is inherently in all of us? We are the universe.

Suddenly, the question of whether it is all in our minds or not seems to lose meaning if we consider that we are part of a whole. It doesn't matter any more. If you want to visit parallel worlds, the phase will provide that for you (if it is simulated from our point of view - who knows - the simulation might have an objective reality in another dimension). Whether we can really visit the deceased or not also becomes a null point if we are all one mind. They are in us and part of infinity and can be whatever we want them to be.

Travelling in time could also be simulated and real at the same time if we consider different histories. Our imagination could really take us to other realms... imagination in our reality but reality somewhere else... and perhaps our reality is the imagination of beings from other worlds who also enter altered states of consciousness...

In the end, what matters is the experience and the practicality (and not whether the phase happens in a dark matter universe). What can you do with the phase? How can it be beneficial? How can you better yourself and improve your life with it. That's what matters in my opinion.

Let people believe in whatever they want to believe.

Chris_ld · Post by **Chris_ld** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:12 pm

I agree with you Summerlander.

The important thing isn't if it's real or not, but what the information inside can provide us, just like how information in our physical reality can. But if it can, why shouldn't it count as "real"?
And let's say that it isn't real, well then you can question yourself "How do you define real?".

Real is just a term. When we dream for example, our brain is even more active, than when we are awake, and phasers can sometimes describe the experience as more real than reality. Wouldn't that almost be considered more than real then?

This video describes the problem I encounter when I try to define real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxSzK5fS ... Kgsy1rk%3D

And due to to this problem I am going to focus on the information.

Although.. Too much weird things has happened in order to make me dismiss the phase, astral w/e as a something mind-created, such as proof of telepathy, shared experiences and accessing information we didn't previously know and more...

I am going to keep practicing and hopefully I will find the truth.

Although I used to go by "The only source of knowledge is experience" - Albert Einstein.

But now I also know that the astral can make you believe weird stuff. So you need experience by both the astral and the physical in order to prove anything.

And that's what I intend to do.

Now I'll go phasing. Take care!

Post by **Summerlander** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:19 pm

Hmmm... precisely!

We certainly enter a mental realm where we can pick our reality. Perhaps possible worlds and beings are manifest there and really do exist - maybe it is a matter of infinite possibilities awaiting physical birth... who knows.

At the same time, the phase could allows us to visit other people's dreams and imagination. If you think about it, how many times do people talk about their dreams in general. Not much. If you enter the phase and have sex with your neighbour, this one may be dreaming about having sex with you. You think your neighbour would admit to this? Also, do you have the courage to announce what you did in your lucid dream to said person?

We also have to consider the possibility of precognition besides telepathy. On a Stan's Superhumans, there was a man who was recording his lucid dreams and some appeared to be precognitive. Coincidence or reality you decide! Here, I found it! This is interesting - we can all try this (remain open-minded but also with a head about you):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMk8QJ7zklg

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:41 pm

without having mercy on my readers, i have tried to make it clear that the phase or any other altered state may perhaps trigger physic phenomena. As to whether the phase if real or not it does not bother me at all. i have always tried to keep a down to earth approach into psychic phenomena that has happened to me or produced by me on a daily basis as long as bending metal utensils is concerned. The unexplained intriguing phenomena, itself taking into account its mysterious nature overpowers any outbursts of misticism i could have had. I am referring myself to a new interest that has been drawing people's interest on the internet-the ascension experience-which is supposed to be a in-body experience on which the practitioner would attain to a supposedly high state of consciousness connecting to the angels and archangels. i think it is very untrustworthy experience, a product of a powerful imagination, i think. What attracts my attention and interest for the phase experience is not the wish to unveil all the secrets of the universe but it is a doorway into a new source of info. about the world and about myself. That's why the outspoken practical approach taken by this site interested me.

Post by **Summerlander** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:06 pm

Tony wrote: a doorway into a new source of info. about the world and about myself. That's why the outspoken practical approach taken by this site interested me.

I can relate to this. It is certainly a source of info. On the phase potentially providing the practitioner with ESP experiences... I'm not a believer per se but... I remain open to such possibility. I've undergone some pretty outstanding phases which suggest that either said state appeals to a sixth sense about real world matters, or, I happened to experience some striking coincidences.

Although I don't trust that Thomas Campbell, I find myself agreeing with him when it comes to experience (although I tweak the sense he conveys in the following words to fit my worldview a little bit whilst ignoring the pseudo-science

): "It is all data".

Indeed, it is all data. The data can be interpreted in so many ways by us conscious beings. A thing is only something if we say it is. If you tell a child that nobody in the world can be trusted, then you have already painted a picture of the world for them.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:57 pm

it may sound part of so many common-places but i am led to believe we are all connected as social beings. it is undeniable that we are curious beings. We tend to join ourselves in groups and exchange info. We pretend to be making sense and as we hate feeling lonely even living in the countryside we will never be alone considering we would be sharing commonalities with peasants if we had no other means of communications such as radio, TV and the internet. Our rooted creeds will keep us an invisible connection to our religious fellows. Solitude, the complete emptiness above contamination from pre-conceptions perhaps we will never know. I cannot let to agree with you concerning to sex and love. The fact is that desire projects our future events and we tend to rationalize, invent justifications for our weakest points. Even the supposed weakest points are nothing but a binary concept over living-good/bad, ett. i take the shaman craft as an example, what counts for me is being among people what i like most as a means of escape. It is an extension of my job at the schools. Returning to the shaman craft, among all the superstitions and empty rituals there are people who develop some kind of paranormality and whith whom i can keep telepathic contact helped by the strict framework of creeds. As an investigator it is enough for me. The scenario is provided by the ritual, understand, it facilitates contact.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:45 pm

Quotei assure you that we do have a non-physical body made out of a subter energy that can be projected possessing a set of senses of perception similar and serving for the same purposes as those from the physical body-we have para-eyes, para-ears and para-everything,ett.

But how can you assure me of that? Where is your proof? Show me what convinced you of that. How comes the existence of ghosts has not been officially established? Where is this energy you speak of? What do you mean by non-physical? If we have a subtler body made of some sort of energy then surely it must be physical also? Why do people insist on using oxymoronic terms?

Tony-you may give me a discount if i use oxymoronic terminonogy to depict what 'seems' to me in practical terms. Sorry to displease your ultra plain arrogant pseudo-alpha maleD type AC/DCEd terminology that would shame Hitler in all his glorious days. it is all right if you start to curse like Mr. Scroogie in Xmas time.

Post by **Summerlander** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:52 pm

LOL! Tony... I think you are getting me all wrong. In fact you are not the only one. I can argue against people who claim to know for sure that telepathy, precognition and the afterlife are real as much as I confront those diehard sceptics who vehemently deny the possibility of such things being real.

I can relate to Mr. Scrooge, by the way. I once entered the phase around Xmas and it put me in the best of moods. I was not my usual self then. A changed man!

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:46 pm

In fact you are not the only one. I can argue against people who claim to know for sure that telepathy, precognition and the afterlife are real as much as I confront those diehard sceptics who vehemently deny the possibility of such things being real.

YES, i understand. I have some news for you. There'll be no more talking about psychic phenomena on my part. i give a d. for faithful or sceptics, go to h. Let's talk about other things, right?

Luna · Post by **Luna** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:38 am

If you enter the phase and have sex with your neighbour, this one may be dreaming about having sex with you. You think your neighbour would admit to this? Also, do you have the courage to announce what you did in your lucid dream to said person?

I've always wondered this!!

If I have a dream that I am kissing Robert Pattinson

and I tell my friend...."OMG I dreamt I was kissing Robert Pattinson last night!!!!"
But I wonder if at the same time I've had the dream about him....he's dreamt about kissing ME! Although he has to explain to his mate what I look like. "I dreamt I was kissing this chick...." not knowing wether I was totally random or a real person!! It's weeeird!!!

Anyway it's all very fascinatiing stuff.

Post by **Summerlander** » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:17 pm

@ Tony:

No problem, mate! I get you.

@ Luna:

Yes. It crosses my mind a lot. I also had a particular experience which made me think even harder about this possibility and it seemed to give credit to Sheldrake's theory of mind fields that we all share. My experience didn't involve sex but it was about certain elements found in the phase that suggested they were in the mind of another dreaming person in the vicinity. I'll look for this experience and PM you if you like. If I don't find it I'll sum it up when I have time.

Luna · Post by **Luna** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:52 am

Oooooh yes please PM it to me. cool!!

Post by **Summerlander** » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:48 pm

Right, I'll go through my journal and post it to you as soon as I find it!

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:14 pm

Luna, you are a good headed girl. When i was younger i used to dream with Enya-the lyric singer. i found Enya an elegant romantic person and she expresses my woman side. i mean if i was a woman i would like to be like Enya. i really doubt i have ever met Enya into those realms, dimensions,ett. it is a type of dream therapy. my English is very poor, fortunately i understand what you post. i get tongue-tied when i have to write.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:25 pm

didn't know where to post this, so i decided to post here. If there's still someone out there could anyone tell me if he/she has already entered the phase making use of binaural beats, cause i have.

Luna · Post by **Luna** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:47 am

Luna, you are a good headed girl

Thanks Tony

Ps. I've always loved Enya. Her music is very moving.

I have tried using the binaural beats but I always got agitated using them.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:02 pm

Perhaps, they are not good for you, i mean, they do not fit in your idiossyncrasies, moods, ett. Funny, it occur me now that the material practical spirit of this site cannot respond for your lack of interest for binaural beats, you know, binaural beats are brain entrainment and obviously it is very material means due to its goal which is focusing on the brain preferably to a supposed immaterial or incorporeal being which is a vision advocated by the supposed spiritual instructors (by the way there's a lot of manipulation between the relationship of master and disciple). In my case they, the binaural beats, have helped me in my general good relationship to people.