Lucid Dreaming and OBE Discussion Board

hello Michael. I am curious as to your own personal philosophy or spiritual beliefs. What do you believe the subconcious mind is? Why does the Phase exist? Does the phase worlds really exist out there?

Ok...ok.  You got us.  Me and Michael are two demons trying to get people away from spiritual beliefs and getting them to consider more materialistic explanations! 

Ok, I'll get serious.  Nobody knows how the subconscious works.  Consciousness is a big mystery in itself and the Phase is undoubtedly connected to it.

The Phase appears to be a mental space that we can travel in and it can be very beneficial.  Stephen LaBerge said something interesting once and he is probably the one "astral guru" that Michael Raduga agrees with the most.  He said:

"I am making an appeal for a more scientific, critical-minded approach to the relationship of OBEs to lucid dreams. It is not enough to claim, as Monroe (1985) does, that OBEs are simply not dreams or that "those who have actively participated in [research at the Monroe Institute] have inescaped [sic], and conclusively accepted the reality of the out-of-body experience." Monroe asserts that "the protocols, methodology, and measurement systems may be different from conventional scientific process, by necessity. Physiologic parameters are not necessarily the major gauge of non-physical events." Unfortunately, Monroe appears to simply assume that the OBE is non-physical, occurring "without the support mechanism of a physical body and physical sensory stimulants [sic]." If this is science, where is the evidence? If it is not, as I fear, it may be like—Monroe’s words—"trying to measure and analyze electricity with a coffee cup." Incidentally, what psychophysiology is trying to do is correlate mental events with brain physiology, not an altogether absurd undertaking unless you believe your brain is nothing more than a cooling system. Anyone more than "somewhat aware" of the recent developments in the study of lucid dreaming will know how successful the psychophysiological approach has been in shedding light on a phenomenon previously no better understood than the OBE. I see no reason why OBEs could not be efficiently studied by the same signal-verification methodology that is now standard for laboratory investigations of lucid dreaming.

I would like to leave readers with something to think about regarding what it might mean to "leave your body." First of all, what exactly does "being in your body" mean?

Being in the body means constructing a mental body image. Because it is based on sensory information, it accurately represents the body’s position in physical space. While dreaming, we are out of touch with our bodies and consequently liberated from the physical constraints imposed by waking perception. Thus, no awkward sensory facts are present to limit our movement in mental space, and we are free to move out of the spatial orientation defined by "being in the (physical) body." The part of us that "leaves the body" travels in mental, not physical, space. Consequently, it would seem reasonable to suppose that we never "leave our bodies" because we are never in them. Where "we" are when we experience anything at all—OBEs included—is in mental space. Milton’s famous phrase, "The Mind is its own place," goes not quite far enough. The mind is not merely its own place, the mind is its only place (LaBerge, 1985, pp. 220–221)."

http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/comments.htm

I'm a scientific person.  I think what we perceive as physical and non-physical are part of the same reality.  Perhaps thoughts will be found to be existent on a frequency beyond the ultrasonic one day.  With this postulation in mind, it is not hard to imagine that thoughts may be "physical" too but on a different level.  Let's consider how weird the quantum world of the physical realm is.  If we put things into perspective with an open-mind, we will see that this physical universe is nothing but a very slow, persistent and collapsed dream.  A dream shared by many individuated units of consciousness...people, animals...ahem...aliens.

I will put my hand up.

Nothing Real Can Be Threatened

Nothing Unreal Exists.

Herein lies the Peace of God.

DraHan, None of what you think is reality is real.

We are dreaming that we fell from heaven.

When actually we never left it.

Only Love is Real.

So what you think you are experiencing as real is only an electrical impulse in your brain. (btw which doesn't exist)

There is no one "out there".


What you think you see is a holograhic reflection in a universe of vibrational light.

If you believe in devils that is exactly what you will experience.

If you believe only in Love that that is what exactly what you will experience.

Love it all.  It is all God (Source etc..)  It is not possible for it to be anything else.

You can choose whatever you like.


This is from Me and I am not speaking for Michael.

Michael is wise not to share his philosophy at this point.  As he has said he is not sure what it is all about. He only knows what he has experienced.

But then again....I could be wrong.

You all may like this paper:
http://a-c-elitzur.co.il/uploads/articl ... sm0409.pdf

IMO,the contents of our collective dream we call "physical reality" cannot now ,or ever,explain consciousness fully.As much as I do like scientific explanations;they will always be doomed to the third person perspective which can never fully account for,or explain away, a first person perspective.

Material reductionism only puts us into a self referencing loop that does not contain the answer. For instance some scientists think that DNA and genes determine all belief and behavior (this ignores epigenetics)-they think they have isolated the so called "God Gene" even. So the question is-will they find the gene that makes scientists believe that all beliefs are caused by genes?

There are alot of other absurdities that go along with belief in materialism too.Such as the fact that all of our thoughts,behavior and choices were determined at the so called big bang.I for one do not accept this.Brain processes do not equal mental experience though many do have correlates-but that is all they are...correlates. I do though agree with Summerlander that there is much to learn from them.

The problems of equating all experience with material brain events as being causal is further compounded by the findings of quantum mechanics.It has been shown beyond doubt that measurable dynamic properties of matter like position and momentum (and others) do not exist objectively apart from measurement from a relational frame of reference.Relativity as well shows that there is no objective measure of space or time apart from a specific frame of reference.The brain of course is the material object in apparent space and time with which we do the measuring,so here is another self referencing loop.This puts the mind right in the center of everything-our realities are subjective,though they share related content consistently in the state of mind we call waking.

IMO people who think the phase = material brain states may not have considered what this means.If true- every sound,sight,color,perception of motion,etc,in reality would be no more than colliding biochemicals and electrical discharges pulling double duty as the percievers and the generators within a closed loop of self reference. But there are no sounds ,colors, or objects in the material of the brain phase or no phase.A neuron that 'lights up' on a brain scan when one 'sees' the color red is not the color red itself.[Also don't forget that in the phase there is no 'light' striking the retinas,no vibrations striking the ear drums ,etc.]

I don't think I have all of the answers but the above seems about as unbelievable as many of the world's myths. I believe that the chain of self reference needs a leap of logic to escape somehow...
We are all in Plato's metaphorical cave,I think phase practice is the best path forward....

As far as a scientific world view is concerned,I've recently found "Relational Quantum Mechanics" to be very interesting as it views reality as series of relational interacting frameworks of macroscopic quantum states.One of the philosophical consequences of this unification of QM and relativity is that the waking world is very much like a MMORPG! Now, how to apply this to the mind and the phase???(This seems to fit pretty well with Thomas Campbell's "My Big T.O.E." )



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3he4YHDj ... ideo_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO4IDDyjUaQ

A man after my own heart Jeff.