Lucid Dreaming and OBE Discussion Board

I am wondering if there is a strong correlation between success in conscious phase entry and easy falling asleep? Do you know people who are very successful with INDIRECT phase entry but don't fall asleep easily?

Here is why I think this is the most crucial requirement:
- in the morning, in order to enter the phase you need in fact to fall asleep
- FFA is very important and useful technique, but you need ability to fall asleep on demand
- in the evening, you want to setup an intent, and this works only if you do this just before falling asleep. It is not working if done earlier.

Almost all my phase entries so far were during a dream. Sometimes it happens, that I dream about my morning wake-up (unconsciously), and I then enter the phase using indirect methods without any problems. So this is not about confidence or mistakes?

I have never been able to fall asleep on demand in my life (tried a lot). When I do fall asleep it is very sudden (nothing between) and wake up the same way, instantly. Sometimes it is so rapid, that I don't even realize I have slept for hours. If occasionally I start falling asleep gradually (so that I can notice that) I wake up.

So after months of trying, I am wondering, what are my chances (of a conscious entry) without changing the life long habit like falling asleep?

I'm sure Michael or someone else will correct me, but falling asleep easily might work against you for entering the phase. 

The indirect methods are best for beginners because otherwise you would have to learn to meditate first, and most beginners don't have that kind of patience. 

jarekf wrote: I am wondering if there is a strong correlation between success in conscious phase entry and easy falling asleep? Do you know people who are very successful with INDIRECT phase entry but don't fall asleep easily?

Here's a quote from Michael:

"Genuine practice of phase entrance is best begun with the easiest, most accessible methods: indirect techniques, which are conscious actions performed upon awakening from sleep. Some critics incorrectly assume that indirect techniques are not ideal, and prefer to start with direct techniques. However, doing so provides no guarantee for success and results in a large amount of wasted time and effort. Starting practice with indirect techniques guarantees entrance into the phase(lucid dreaming, out-of-body experience, astral projection)."

Newbies should start with indirect techniques.  Even the experienced often use indirect techniques.  Direct techniques are too hard for the newbie as it involves training your mind to stay focus and maintain awareness in the hypnagogic state.

I have experimented with both and can guarantee you that indirect techniques provide the very much sought shortcut.  If I do it directly, I will have primed myself with a nap or sleep (known as the deferred method).

Resist falling asleep when you are about to enter the phase.  For those who fall asleep easily, it is best that you assume a less comfortable position.  If you still have doubts, review SOBT or check out the relevant OBE4u videos.

jarekf wrote: Here is why I think this is the most crucial requirement:
- in the morning, in order to enter the phase you need in fact to fall asleep

No you don't.  The body "falls asleep" (physiologically) but the mind can remain aware throughout the transition from wakefulness to the phase state (no perceived lapses in consciousness).

jarekf wrote: - FFA is very important and useful technique, but you need ability to fall asleep on demand

FFA can require practice.  This can be particularly difficult if at the time your adenosine levels are not high enough.

jarekf wrote: Almost all my phase entries so far were during a dream. Sometimes it happens, that I dream about my morning wake-up (unconsciously), and I then enter the phase using indirect methods without any problems. So this is not about confidence or mistakes?

Oh believe me, making mistakes and being confident play an important role too.

jarekf wrote: So after months of trying, I am wondering, what are my chances (of a conscious entry) without changing the life long habit like falling asleep?

If you want to experience a wake-initiated phase entry, you need to apply the indirect technique with confidence.  The deferred method can work wonders too.  I often go to bed around 11pm or midnight and wake up around 5am.  I then get up, use the toilet, and, about 15-20 minutes later I go down to enter the phase.  When you go down to induce the experience, do NOT fall asleep or you will dream and ruin it.

Entering the phase is easier than what people think.  Try to find what works best for you.

The indirect methods are best for beginners because otherwise you would have to learn to meditate first

Meditation also doesn't help. Although I may not be very good at it, because I never entered it very deeply (at least I don't think so).

Resist falling asleep when you are about to enter the phase.  For those who fall asleep easily, it is best that you assume a less comfortable position.

I wish that was the problem. In my case this is the opposite :-). And I can't find any more comfortable position :-).

No you don't.  The body "falls asleep" (physiologically) but the mind can remain aware throughout the transition from wakefulness to the phase state (no perceived lapses in consciousness).

I know this is a typical way of explaining it, so that the body is separated from the mind. But I don't think this is very accurate. Mind also needs to fall sleep. That is why phase awareness is different then wake awareness. Besides, I don't know how to put my body to sleep as well .

Oh believe me, making mistakes and being confident play an important role too.

What I meant, was that since my indirect techniques works flawlessly when I am already in an (unconscious) sleep, then I don't think I lack confidence. If I did, then I would also fail when doing this in an (unconscious) dream (when I dream that I awoke in the morning in my bed). Because for me this is exactly the same attempt, the same effort.

The deferred method can work wonders too.

It also makes wonders for me but in a very different way :-). I used to sleep a lot in the mornings, on weekends up until noon, which often annoyed me because I thought I was loosing too much time. But now when I set the alarm at 6:30, get up for 1 minute (to close windows) and get back, it often happens I can't fall asleep any more, and after trying for an hour or so I finally get up (and yawn for the rest of the day), those attempts wakes me up like nothing ever before. And here is why I think this is a wonder: I never ever in the past was able to get up so early in the weekends like now :-). Today it was at 8:20. Amazing. The day is so much longer.

Entering the phase is easier than what people think.

Yes, but only if you are successful :-). For example I always thought that mathematics and computer programming are very easy, and I can't get it why so many people disagree :-).

Ok, here's a more or less concise guide that I have used to help others before and why it might help:

Wake up earlier than usual and keep active during the day.  Have a nap or sleep in the evening when you are tired. 

You can nap for two hours in the evening and then stay awake for an hour and a half before induction, or, you can go to bed late and sleep to wake up between 4am and 6am to induce.  Depending on your sleep inertia symptoms, you should stay up for a little while after waking up if you are using the deferred method.  Try to balance out the sensation of feeling sleepy and alert.

When you go down to enter the phase, your body will be dying to enter the REM stage that it was previously deprived of.  In other words, it will slip into that stage in under 10 minutes (like in narcolepsy) rather than the usual 90 minute wait.  You see how you have already acquired a shortcut here?  If you are physiologically primed, the body will slip into REM atonia (paralysis) so quick that the mind won't have time to fall asleep with it.  The body won't wait for the mind this time.  Often, when I do it, there is no perceived lapse of consciousness.  It's a wake-initiated lucid dream with a perceived separation from the body.

Now, for this to work, you need to resist any urges to move...but don't worry, because you are primed for the experience, these urges won't be strong enough or won't bother you for long. 

Your job is to relax.  It helps if you focus on an imagined object or a mantra in your head in order to shift the focus away from physical sensations.  Now...there will be a flurry of stray thoughts in your mind, all begging for your attention.  This is natural.  The mind is a very complex thing and you may get lost in them.  Don't worry.  You have not ruined anything.  If you feel yourself getting lost, simply bring yourself back to the focus.  If it is a familiar object in your head, like your bedroom lamp, it doesn't have to be visualised to perfection.  You don't even have to see it.  Just focus your mind on it and wait.  What follows might be something like this:

Mind gets lost...bring it back to focus...mind gets lost...bring it back to focus...BANG! (you will experience a sudden shift in consciousness and you will know something is different - congrats as the phase is just around the corner).

Now, the above sounds long, but, I can assure you, you won't be waiting around for long.  These days I don't even have to do that any more.  You can separate from the body in less than a minute from the time that you go down to induce!  I promise you!

Once you experience that sudden "shift", you can abandon the mental object you were focusing on.  That only served as an aid to keep your mind away from bodily sensations and to engage with the mental.  You may experience all sorts of hallucinations during this transition into the phase.

Separation: there are many ways of achieving a successful disassociation from the body.  I usually roll over and out of the body slowly (sometimes fast and I apply aggression when I feel there is a resistance).  To start with,  do it subtly and as though you are moving physically but without using muscles.  If you are going to roll, it seems best to start from the head as this causes the rest of the body to follow.  If there is a perceived resistance, be forceful.  This movement is not imagined, it is done with intent.  Once you have succeeded, look around and check that you are in the phase.

I hope this helps!  Good luck! 

Thanks for all advices. I believe I tried those, but will do more.

You can nap for two hours in the evening and then stay awake for an hour and a half before induction, or, you can go to bed late and sleep to wake up between 4am and 6am to induce.

So you propose the sleep deprivation as a method to fall asleep. I remember I once had 2 consecutive nights (and days) without a sleep (I do not have insomnia, it just happened once). After the first 24 hours I thought I would fall asleep easily, but it didn't happen. I just wanted to sleep, but I wanted it too much. My jaw was in pain out of all yawning, my body very tired, but the sleep wouldn't come, in a way it was an amazing experience. Then I learned that it is all in my mind, and in order to sleep I have to completely avoid any wish or intent about it, just clear the mind, relax (shutdown internal dialog) and leave it be. And that how it works in the evening. But if I do this now in the morning (give up completely) then I can fall asleep, but not become lucid.

Mind gets lost...bring it back to focus...mind gets lost...bring it back to focus...BANG!

What you describe is how to enter a trance. This is a very common technique: relaxation + narrowed focus = trance. I tried it so many times. Not only in bed, but also during meditation (in order to enter trance). I have no problem to focus (I program computers so do it often) or relax, but the BANG or "shift" effect never came, no matter how long (I tried up to an hour). I also tried self hypnosis, it was an interesting experience to use my voice to relax but just as ineffective in the end.

Our brain is a very mysterious object :-). It is like a computer, it can be programmed, and I have done it a lot, but in this case I am struggling with the life long habit:  falling asleep.

No, it's not sleep deprivation, more like a sleep interruption when you plan to enter the phase on a particular night.  Don't deprive yourself of sleep.  That can be detrimental to your health.  What I propose is more like temporarily pissing your brain off and then then you give it what you want.  REM sleep can be forfeited, but don't you ever get into the habit of depriving yourself of sleep.  Delta sleep is not forfeitable like REM.

Our brain is a very mysterious object :-). It is like a computer, it can be programmed, and I have done it a lot, but in this case I am struggling with the life long habit:  falling asleep.

Indeed our brains are very much computerised.  By the way, I believe you will get there.  Give what I've proposed a chance and report back what happened.  If you sleep all night and wake up when it's light outside, take advantage of the indirect techniques.  Btw, keep an eye out for the new SOBT. 

Delta sleep is not forfeitable like REM.

This is not exactly true, some studies indicate REM is more important. Have you heard about Uberman sleep? I have never done it myself, but I know someone who did. The main idea is that you sleep only 20 minutes at a time, every 4 hours, that makes it total 2 hours per each 24 hours. It is very difficult to start, but after about a week  brain adjusts and for some people this can be a very exhilarating time (others, mostly students, use it primarily to save on time). There are some interesting facts related to it, but I only want to mention one: it is all REM. Looks like REM is more important for the brain, and so it prefers it rather then deep sleep. This makes it pretty hard for the body because the regeneration and healing process is slower, but when it comes to mind and its clarity some people report wonders. One possibility: lucid dream for 2 hours per day :-).

Yes, I am looking forward to read the new SOBT.

I think you misunderstood.  REM is forfeitable but not avoidable.  The more you forfeit it, the more the brain will crave for it and it will get it at the slightest opportunity.  After all, there is a reason why I used the words "pissing the brain off".  The brain certainly needs REM. 

Delta, on the other hand, is most likely the product of high adenosine levels.  It is unavoidable and, if you deprive yourself of sleep, SWS will hit you hard. This stage can also be increased with hot baths or exercise before bedtime.  Temperature plays a role and it also goes up as exercise promotes the release of adrenaline.  However, this will decrease the REM duration later.

On the other hand, I see the purpose of uberman sleep.  It is polyphasic.  Relatively short naps can extend the wakefulness periods.  In fact, a nap that lasts about 20 minutes can be refreshing.  If the nap is about two hours long, though, you are likely to wake up groggy and not feeling very well.

jarekf wrote: Meditation also doesn't help. Although I may not be very good at it, because I never entered it very deeply (at least I don't think so).

Like any other skill, if you wish to become good at meditation... you need to practice.  A LOT. 

Of course, it's much easier for people who can quickly fall asleep. It doesn't mean others cannot do this. It's just a little bit harder. You'll see some new information about this in new version of SOBT soon. 

When I first started I only entered in the phase by dream !
I was dreaming that I get out of my body,and that brought me lucidity!
And I did not look for it to enter in the phase counsciously ,but it happened without even trying..it came like I have done it since forever!
The dream entering trained my sensations of the phase..so when i woke in my bed (false awakening)I felt those sensations and I just stood up in the phase!
Even last night ..after a period of not entering in the phase...last night I entered the same...via dream counsciousness..!!
It was very cool...it is still the phase!!Just deepen much:D


wiii