Re: Near death experiences

[Bo]

I’m currently reading a book about Nde’s (Near death experiences)
The book is written by Pim van Lommel. A Dutch cardiologist who’s conclusion is that consciousness isn’t a function of the brain but can exist separately.
He -Because of his longtime research- is certain the brains are merely functioning like a transmitter and receiver.
He has published about his research in “the lancetâ€

[Rudolph]

Yes, this is a very interesting subject. I remember reading of one story where the patient reported being on the ceiling during the time he was "brain dead". He gave an accurate report of what the medical team had done. He even gave the details of writing on the equipment mounted on the ceiling that was verified when someone got a ladder and checked. He also said there was a shoe on the ledge outside the window around a corner where no one could see. Someone went out on the ledge and found the shoe exactly where the patient said it would be.

And yes, more data is coming to light showing how the brain is just a receiver and consciousness resides elsewhere. A big question is where is memory stored. ? Even people who have had half their brains removed do not lose any memory at all.

[JorgeLTE]

I've always believed that body and mind are 2 different things.
Actually, here, in the forum, there is a blind practitioner. I think that his nickname is Alchemist.

Phase experiences can be priceless for people with disabilities.

[Jeff]

Hello Bo,
I like this topic alot,I think it is the ultimate question really.Opinions seem to vary here as best as I can tell.For now,personally I come down on the side of survival of consciousness- in some form or another.I read the same book and found the data very convincing.I also recommend reading 'Science and the Near Death Experience' by Chris Carter.

The issues are this as best as I can tell:

1.NDEers should be granted that their experiences did occur. If not, then one could deny the existence of our OBE and LD experiences as well because they too cannot be measured from a first person-qualia perspective.

2.If the brain is not functioning,there is no measurable electrical activity during the time in question (which means no 'dying brain' theory or 'REM' intrusion.)and they report verifiable information that could not have been known from the time period in which they were supposed to be unconscious then this is strong evidence for the survival of consciousness outside of the brain.

3.From the dying brain perspective:Is a dying brain with some minimal activity enough to 'generate' the experience?

The only way I see to refute 2 (if one doesn't try to argue for a coincidental false memory)is to challenge the timing of the experience.Then one has to admit the existence of psi or telepathy to explain the verifiable information and claim that the experience was 'generated' when functionality was returned.

In this case the experiencer would have his memory sort of time stamped in the past as if it actually occured during the unconscious episode.I think there are obvious problems with this.For instance,why would the brain do this and just how could it do this? This would have to be explained somehow.In fairness,there are some weird experiments with the brain,time and perception out there,so who knows? ( Libet's experiment. The 'cutaneous rabbit' experiment.)

The other thing I wonder about is if the consciousness of the experiencer goes into some kind of time dilation or something?Very confusing to think about,maybe I'm wrong...

On #3 I think it is no.This is a logically inconsistent position for a materialist.On one hand they argue that all experience is generated by the brain.There is a one to one correspondence with neural activity and all perceptions and experience they say.But at the same time,granting #1,they are arguing that a rich experience (with no deepening as you pointed out!) in fact occurs under the conditions in which the neural correlates of visual,auditory,spatial,etc,experience are firing at a minimal rate-or maybe not at all in some areas. This just doesn't explain the quality of the experience. ( again granting #1 )

Finally,nay sayers come from the assumption that the brain, in all cases, forms 'indirect' representations of the world 'out there.' Though there is data that can be explained this way,there are also theories of 'direct perception' which also have great explanatory power and carry less baggage. I don't know what is right and I'm not dissing the brain,just my opinions at this time.

Edit: I think in the case of #3,the same goes for 'REM intrusion.'

[Jeff]

I've always believed that body and mind are 2 different things.
Actually, here, in the forum, there is a blind practitioner. I think that his nickname is Alchemist.

Phase experiences can be priceless for people with disabilities.

Has Alchemist reported visual perception in the phase? It depends on the cause of blindness maybe though.For instance,if the cause is retinal one can still dream normally. But in such a case I still don't believe it's 'all in the brain.' This is because vision,even under normal circumstances is far from being explained.

As I recall from some anatomy and chemistry classes and as pointed out in the book "Out of Our Heads" :

Our retinal images are lacking information in many 'blind spots.' The optic nerve is 'blind'.Blood vessels and nervous tissue cover the rhodopsin in places too I believe!??!

'Cones' are concentrated in the center of the retina,yet the visual field is fully colored in varying lighting conditions!??!

There are two inverted retinal 'images';yet we see one image 'upright' !??! ( upright in relation to what !??!)

When we track a moving object the entire retinal images shift,yet the background doesn't move !??!

Our eyes make many micro movements called saccades,yet we see a stable world !??!

Retinal images are 2 D,yet we see 3D. This is supposed to be mathematically impossible!??!

As far as I'm aware these things and much more have not been explained by representational theories of the brain.

[Summerlander]

Have any of you guys read DMT, The Spirit Molecule by Rick Strassman? This is a book which documents his research and experiments with this psychedelic whose endogenous properties are still quite elusive. Not many people have conducted such an extensive research on DMT. He also explores its association with near-death experiences and other mystical states of consciousness and the possibility that the pineal gland may in fact be the "seat of the soul" as once postulated by Rene Descartes, the philosopher who supported dualism and the famous phrase "cogito ergo sum" (I think therefore I am).

The human pineal gland contains all it needs to produce DMT.  It has the highest levels of serotonin than anywhere else in the body and produces melatonin and tryptamine, the latter being a major step towards the formation of dimethyltryptamine (DMT). What's more, certain enzymes that are known to have the power to convert the tryptamines into psychedelic compounds were found in the pineal.

Taking this into account, we can see that in the human body, the pineal gland is the most reasonable place for the making of DMT. The gland also produces beta-carbolines which inhibit the breakdown of DMT in ayahuasca and, once ingested, prevents the monoamine oxydases in the gut from destroying it. It would be reasonable to speculate that in the pineal, the beta-carbolines would enhance and prolong the effects of DMT, especially during meditative states, dreams, OOBEs and NDEs. 

Endogenous DMT may also play a role in our perception of the waking world.  As you know, what you see of reality happens in the brain.  You don't see it directly.  Thus, one could think of our perception of reality as a very elaborate hallucination which serves to translate the sensory input we get from the external world.

Furthermore, and this is where it gets really interesting, is that calcite crystals were discovered in the pineal which seem to display properties indicative of the possibility piezoelectricity!  Like the otoconia of the inner ear, the telephone, and the sonar...

If this is indeed the case, it could act as a receiver and transmitter of data from electromagnetic fields.  There may be already a few telecommunications companies out there investing on this type of research in order to improve/upgrade their products.  There is a chance that these pineal crystals will help us to evolve technologically.

Check this link out for further details on this:
http://www.starweave.com/pinealsummary/

So, could we be tapping into other frequencies of reality when we enter the phase?  Does the pineal gland become active at that stage?  Could this be a possible explanation for the pulsatile hiss sometimes experienced when one is about to enter the phase?  Does our conscious awareness go quantum in order to check out other possible worlds?  Could worlds of the imagination be perceived potentialities for perhaps already manifest physical worlds (like the "Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Theory)?  And, could the activation of these microcrystals make telepathy possible?  Could our minds be quantum entangled? 

Are mind and matter two separate things or, instead of this dichotomy, the real medium of everything that exists is consciousness?  Could thoughts and physical matter be of the same energy but only sprouting out multidimensionally and ringing in different tones so to speak?  Does this mean that there is life after death?

Sorry, too much coffee! 

[Jeff]

Good questions SL.I didn't know about the crystals..very interesting.I read parts of The Spirit Molecule in Graham Handcock's book 'Supernatural.' Amazing how certain substances can so radically modulate consciousness isn't it? The stories from people who were injected with pure DMT are stunning.

I like the idea that other realities may exist at other frequencies.In a scheme like this I like to imagine (and conjecture from my limited pop science readings) that DMT,drugs and even Lucid dreaming supplements could put the brain in a 'resonant state.' Other freestanding realities or MWI parallel universes could be like chaotic attractors or something..? I sometimes wonder if these kinds of ideas fit with the elementary wave and wave structure of reality interpretations of QM? In these interpretations particles are only an effect.They are really spherical standing waves and the entire universe is interconnected and interdependent.

This idea seems like it could maybe unite representational and direct theories of perception.In this model (milo wolff's space resonance theory) our consciousness only experiences energy exchanges in a medium of spherical standing waves we call 'particles' -some of which make the brain.I actually contacted Casey Blood the former professor of physics at Rutgers University by email awhile back and he confirmed ,shockingly: "there is no evidence for particles" (still trying wrap my head around that one..)

I'll check out the link...

[breadbassed]

My sister bought the DMT book for me, a fascinating read.  There are definitely correlations between NDE's, OBE's and DMT experiences. He never really proves that DMT exist in the brain but all the evidence suggests that it does.

Perhaps mind is the opposite to matter, and therefore is dimensionless, and we are the combination of mind and matter, like yin and yang, to put it in the most basic terms.  The ultimate goal is to combine both extremes to create something even better than the individual thing, i.e. by combining the right and the left brain we encounter lucid dreaming and creativity, either on its own would eventually come obsolete but together they create something wonderful, black and white, good and evil, finite and infinite, one cannot exist without the other.

[Jeff]

Here is a good read that is related to this topic. It makes some good points about NDEs related to their hypothesis that some perceptions in this state may possibly interact with physical processes.

As a specific example not used in this paper:In one NDE case the experiencer was 'coded' in an ER as he became unconscious and went into cardiac arrest.He later explained that he saw a nurse place his dentures in a drawer of the crash cart from above after they removed them to secure his airway.(There was no verbal component to this action) A week or so afterward as he recovered in his hospital room he wanted his dentures back. He told his nurses and doctors where his missing dentures were placed and recalled the whole event -they then found them right where he told them to look..

The interesting point in this story is that his conscious mind possibly interacted with the physical in the form of light reflected from the crash cart,the nurse and his dentures.It is proposed that the mind may interact with the electrical processes of the brain and synapses in a similar way.They describe this as an extension of physical processes to include interaction with another fundamental field- the mind.

http://selfconsciousmind.com/TheoryOfMindAndBrain.pdf

http://selfconsciousmind.com/

[Summerlander]

That is quite interesting Jeff, more interesting than that pineal business.  Rupert Sheldrake would love to get a hold of that one. 

[breadbassed]

The conscious mind interacting with light makes sense, it matches what i have been reading about the 'illuminati' recently where they say that souls are light.  Light is essentially everywhere, all the time, and exists outside of space time, as well as in it, if you were traveling at the speed of light, time would stand still right? If you could move within the existing light (which extends throughout the universe) you could essentially 'see' anything you wanted to or go anywhere you want.

I understand the concept completely but have a hard time explaining it, you can read more about it here if you are interested

http://armageddonconspiracy.co.uk/The-C ... 97059).htm

[Michael Raduga]

In two months our Research Center will conduct an experiment to prove that OBE(phase) and NDE are the same. We are going to gather in LA a group of people who have had NDE and then we will teach them how to enter the phase state. Then they will able to compare these experiences and figure out any differences.

[Jeff]

This is a good idea Michael. What do you think this would mean if they agree that the experience is the same?

[Keep in mind that electrical activity ceases in the brain about 10 seconds after cardiac arrest.So this can be assumed as well for those not having EEG data available for the time of their arrests and NDEs.]

You might want to check this too:

http://www.nderf.org/dreams_nde_research.htm

IMO,it would be a good thing if NDEs agree that the phase and NDE are the same!

[Bo]

There are a few problems with near death experiences.
Sceptics say it is just a function of the brain. Maybe high levels of DMT are released and creates this experience en then we die…

But only 15 % of the people who had cardiac arrest reported an NDE. They were in similar conditions as the ones who did have an NDE
If it is a function of the brain why does not everyone report about it?

I would be very surprised if it was the same as the phase. The phase is so unstable en these people with NDE’s report a series of similar experiences like the tunnel and meet deceased family and so on.
their lives are irreversibly changed by the NDE

I am very curious about this experiment

[Summerlander]

But only 15 % of the people who had cardiac arrest reported an NDE. They were in similar conditions as the ones who did have an NDE
If it is a function of the brain why does not everyone report about it?

Maybe they did experience it but the mechanisms that deal with memory recall didn't engage on that occasion.  We have to take into consideration that every NDE is induced in a different way.  What I mean by this is that the accidents or traumatic experiences that may lead to one are all different.  They are never exactly the same. 

Also, people tend to have different ways of thinking or they may be in different mindsets at the time (which would explain why some have pleasant experiences whilst others undergo nightmarish ones).

Likewise, some people remember dreams vividly while others remember nothing at all and often believe that they don't dream.

The phase is so unstable

The phase doesn't have to be unstable.  It can be very stable at times.  I wholeheartedly believe that NDEs are traumatic phase entries.  When sensory input is next to nil, the self may unconsciously feel the need to be somewhere, to have its existence reassured and hence the brain mechanisms are triggered.  Sometimes, the phase is already deep and does not require maintaining techniques. 

In the case of the NDE, there may be a protective mechanism that prevents a foul from taking place because it is not convenient.  Thus, what constitutes the self or the identity is kept safe within the illusory reality of the phase. 

There may be a lot of quantum activity in the brain that currently goes unnoticed by the scientific community.

the tunnel and meet deceased family and so on.

This can be experienced in the phase too.

their lives are irreversibly changed by the NDE

When I first started having OOBEs, I visited a magical place like it was something out of a fairytale.  The colours were extremely vivid, bright, with well-groomed trees, a river, a golden city, cottages and rainbows.  I call it my "Summerland experience" because later I found similar descriptions in a David Fontana book about the afterlife.  That was when I was first introduced to the Theosophical view.

Anyway, when I had experienced this "summerland" place, it had an impact on me.  I didn't want to leave that place and was saddened when I fouled.  The place wasn't just visual.  There was a lot of harmony, emotion and there were flutey sounds and the chirping of birds.  I was enamoured with it as a novice.  It was a virtual heaven that I had experienced and it had a big impact on me.  Seriously, I couldn't stop thinking about it.  Look...have you noticed?  My name on every forum about the phase, that I've joined, is "Summerlander"...

But, as time went by and I became more experienced in entering the phase, I noticed that any environment could become hyper-real and strong emotions could be conveyed.  Other beautiful landscapes could be visited.

I wonder if I would be as excited about the so-called summerland had I visited it for the first time now, from a more experienced perspective...or would I just regard it as just another one of those breathtaking hyper-real mind constructs.

Another thing, the people who have had their lives changed by NDE...I wonder if they would be feeling the same way if they experienced NDEs several times after their first one.

Novices can get excited!  I think this experiment will show what I already suspect.  NDEs = traumatic phase entries.

We'll see. 

[Bo]

It would be very interesting to compare these experiences both NDE and phase. I expect that people who have had an NDE and experience  the phase will conclude that it’s not the same but of course the conditions in which the experience took place will be very different.

I think everyone who practice the phase would agree that fear will intensify the experience. My first time was very threatening. 
These people with NDE’s know they will die, yet they report very peacefully and blissful feelings. (Yes I know there are people with bad experiences also)

It is very difficult to compare these experiences because they are all so subjective.
But if you have someone who is blind from birth and whose visual cortex is not developed, it would be strange if this person would see similar scenes as someone who can see.
But even this experiment would be subjective. it would be difficult to determine what this person actually would see.
Very difficult to set up a reliable experiment.

The best evidence for the existence of consciousness outside the body are those cases where people know and saw verifiable things which they couldn’t see or know because they actually where brain dead.

I also read that the average time for processing an NDE is seven years

My father had an NDE and he changed also after the experience. He was not happy with his return and became a loner.
He never talked about it, only to my mother and she told me. They are both dead now so I can’t asked them.

I suppose Michael has the most experience here with the phase.
There are enough reports about near death experiences so when you read them, do you really believe they are the same as the phase.
Did you ever have had a similar experience?

[Summerlander]

I've read a few and what has become apparent to me is that people have their own interpretations of what they experience.  What someone might regard as "god", "angel" or "Jesus Christ" might be referred to as a "strange being of light" or even an "interdimensional being" by someone else.  This is just an example...

I've had several OOBEs and one experience that I would regard as a "near-NDE" which happened when I was taking drugs and drinking excessively at university.  This near-NDE happened before I found out about how to enter the phase.

Here's what happened.  I was in a bad shape at the time and not looking after myself properly.  I wouldn't even eat properly.  At the time I was drinking alcohol, smoking a lot of cigarettes and doing a lot of drugs.  I was at the Undercroft (uni bar) most of the time, just getting wasted.

One day I was at the Undercroft and started to feel sick, like I was dying or something.  I went to the loo, away from everyone else and thought I needed to wee.  I stood in front of the urinal for ages and couldn't go.  I felt like dying and passed out.

Next, I perceived myself to be floating above clouds and experienced peace.  It was a great feeling of much needed rest and I just wanted to remain there.  Suddenly, a thought flashed in my mind..."where am I"...WHOOSH...

I was now floating above people's heads in what looked like a vague 3D reality template of the Undercroft.  I could hear their voices, chattering away and indifferent to my floating presence.

WHOOSH...I zoom through a soup of molecules and felt slightly nauseous.  I came to in the loo.  My head was resting on this guy's lap as he splashed water in my face and slapped me about.

Looking back now, I see no difference between my near-NDE and a hazy phase that requires deepening.

They are both dead now so I can’t asked them.

You can always use the phase to ask them.  After all, you never know, the phase COULD be a glimpse of what awaits us when we die.  Perhaps not all encounters with the deceased are simulated.

[Jeff]

This interview is worth a listen.Eben Alexander is a neurosurgeon who is unable to account for his NDE in terms of known brain function.

(For example:It is believed that visual percepts have a one to one correspondence with the neuronal activity of the visual cortices.In his particular case,the cortex was "trashed." )

http://www.skeptiko.com/154-neurosurgeo ... xperience/

[Montana]

New here, and am wondering, after reading the above, if there is a formal operative (scientific) definition of the term "to phase" (verb) or "phase" (noun)?

TIA

-Montana

Summerland:  I had mentioned this general site elsewhere on these boards this morning in response to someone's implicit request for free material/books on the web.  I don't at all mean to be spamming the site (it is non-commercial, at any rate), but here, here is a link to a book on one of those sites, titled "The Devachan", which is the theosophical word used to name the non-physical plane also known as "The Summerland".  Happy reading!

[CKing71]

I'm not sure where the best place to post this is.
From the NDE, I had the distinct feelings, that all illness and injury stay in the body, while I'm out of body. I was part-way in, part-way out and could feel the difference vividly. I never believed in this stuff, until it happened to me. Total primal fear, knowing death was emanate, panic, drove me out of body. I never knew such a thing was possible and even that experience was over whelming for me.
Additionally, "This Experience", i.e. our shared reality,  is also,  just a Phase State. One where we believe, this Phase, is more real and solid than the other Phases.
Death and Taxes:
When I'm out of body, dose my body still exist? If I visit another location or place in time, can it be molested, or dose it only exist when I believe it to be so? Do I still owe taxes?
Kind of rhetorical questions, and kind of a provocative ones. I've met others, who reside there, others in other phases, and not here in this one at all. They are as aware or unaware of me, as I am to them.
Dissociative disorder is the realization of other Phase States existing side by side with the one state, believed to be the real one. My feeling is, once a person glimpse the other states, the main state is changes slightly.
Following my NDE, I became completely dysfunctional, I lost my job of 26 years and removed myself, as much as I could, from family and society. I am today, still rapt by whole the experience.

[Summerlander]

Before you embrace the apparent reality of the NDE, take time to consider other more mundane possibilities.  This subject, among many other such as reincarnation has been discussed in this Forum quite extensively.  I must say that this is a rich thread and may open your mind to consider other angles:

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/ ... p?f=9&t=26

[CKing71]

From a Phase State, I started developing an interest in The Vril Society, their methods, resources and beliefs.
Are there any decedents of the Vril Society or participant practitioners that could comment here?
My mother is full German, and has had experiences all of her adult life, but has never had the opportunity to talk about it.

[Rudolph]

Cking,

My mother is descended German-German (both sides) and as far as I know has no noteworthy abilities in these matters, whatsoever....

I first stumbled over this whole Vril-Yah baloney decades ago

It is rank mythology of the most infantile sort imho.

I have a suggestion for you:

get over it.

edit; this may have come across a little harsh... but this myth is closely connected to Aryan Supremacy movements and so I had a strong reaction to it. I think people have the right to indulge in any belief system they like and enjoy, as long as no one else gets hurt as the game plays out. 

[CKing71]

Thanks for the advice.